I know how much time these forum posts take from the initial post to replying to and answering all of the questions.
Shout-out to everyone involved to get this over the finish line.
Send it!
I know how much time these forum posts take from the initial post to replying to and answering all of the questions.
Shout-out to everyone involved to get this over the finish line.
Send it!
A brief but crucial update in spirit of open data and transparency!
4 of us, including myself, will be in Permissionless II, so if you will be attending and want to connect - please on Twitter/X!
Track our progression in our discord, public project tracker, through DM’s, or our socials.
Thanks for the update.
Can you explain why the QoS framework module will only “partially implement the ‘Cop’ model”? Why does the QoS module not include the whole Node Registry and Nodies Cop functionality that Nodies is currently building?
I understand that the you will be providing “technical documentation on how we’re currently identifying good actors”, but since only part of the code will be open source, this means that future gateways will have to spend their time and resources reverse engineering all the parts that aren’t open source.
Thanks in advance
As Dermot recently shared in PNF’s ambitions update, our Gateway-verse objectives for Q2 2024 are as follows:
With these ambitions laid out, and some Gateway-verse milestones recently hit, it’s time for an overdue update on where we’re at with Gateway-verse. Moving forward we’ll be working to uphold a higher standard of update frequency from both PNF and Nodies.
This update outlines 1) what has been worked on so far in the Gateway-verse and, 2) how we’ll work towards achieving our Q2 2024 objectives.
What has been worked on so far:
How we’ll work towards achieving our Q2 2024 objectives:
I’m excited to see the gateway space moving forward! OS-Gateway looks like a great start to this budding ecosystem.
All these are great accomplishments, however they don’t translate into anything tangible for the community or other gateways, since these are only relevant to the setting up of Nodies own gateway.
I understand that more modules are currently being built to address some of these areas, but it’s not clear what the full stack of a gateway will look like with these modules in a production environment. Very basic info has been shared, but none of that is actionable or detailed enough to fully understand how a production stack is suppose to work.
@poktblade could you provide more insight? My starter questions are similar to what was asked in July:
What is the flow of a relay in your architecture?
How does this stack lay out? (Example: Does OS-Gateway go right behind your firewall, or does it go through an LB, or call filter, etc?)
Where do future modules expect to be placed in your stack? (Example: Will the QoS module connect into OS-Gateway, or does is interface directly with an LB like HAPoxy?)
What dependencies will these modules have?
What tech will these modules interface or integrate with (HAProxy, Promethius, etc)?
@JackALaing said last month
I replied that without code being openly developed and without technical details on what how this stack is supposed to work, contributors like myself cannot get involved. I’m trying to understand the envisioned architecture and see where folks like myself can get involved.
Open-sourcing OS-Gateway is an awesome start, and from my understanding all future development will be in public repos, which will be great as well, but folks like myself need specifics so that we can participate.
Today it was mentioned that a forum update is in the works from Nodies, so I wanted to get my questions out ASAP
Thanks @JackALaing for this recap. To add more to the Gateway Stack:
The Nodies Gateway Stack aims to streamline the integration of applications with the POKT Network, reducing the complexity associated with directly interfacing with the protocol with an all-inclusive stack that any developer can contribute to. This allows for mass adoption across multiple personas such as application developers, existing centralized RPC platforms, future gateway operators, and more.
Whenever proposing and pioneering the pathway to multiple gateways and its benefits to the Foundation, they opened up with open arms to enable us. Whenever we wrote the initial technical specification, the reason why it felt “ambiguous” to some was to prevent being locked into a granular statement of work given that the potential scope of this project is extremely large and to reduce the friction of unnecessary bureaucracy. The specifications were structured in such a way that the ecosystem would always benefit. Our team continues to push the limits of what we can actually do for the ecosystem based on our expertise and experience with the protocol and as a RPC provider, ultimately leading us to the gateway stack.
So what exactly is the gateway stack right now? The gateway stack kickstarts off as a light-weight process that enables developers of all kinds to be able to interact with the protocol and engage with 50+ blockchains without the need of storing terabytes of data, require heavy computational power, nor understand the POKT protocol specifications with a simple docker compose file. The rhetorical question that we pose to future actors who want to maintain a blockchain node is: Why spin up an Ethereum node and maintain it yourself whenever you can just leverage POKT natively using the Gateway stack? Afterall, using POKT would require a fraction of the required resources and technical staffing.
We envision that the stack will be used as a foundation for their entirety of the ecosystem to continue to build on top of such as:
The use cases are limitless and we expect that over time, community contributions into the gateway stack will enable some of the aforementioned use cases natively. Below is an example persona we’ve created to illustrate how existing RPC providers can use POKT through the Gateway Stack.
Our plans for this December and January to transition from alpha to RC ready ordered by priority:
Our goal is that by the end of the 6 month period, the fundamentals of the Gateway stack are sound, and there is a sustainable and realistic way for many more community contributions down the road. Our team will continue to own the direction and vision of the project to prevent any unnecessary thrashing. However, we welcome any discourse within reasonable bounds and our roadmap will continue to be shaped by future gateway operators who will onboard the network.
Please note that the actual deliverables that we are committing to has not changed, the Nodies Gateway Stack exists to house these deliverables but as well set a long-standing vision for future contributions. The end state of the Gateway stack will continue to evolve, however the next two months are now granularly set to baseline the expectations.
To dive deeper into our accomplishments, we frame it in respect to the objectives outlined in the OP and the timeline which is about the hafl way mark of the total engagement as far:
There was a clear need to define processes for future gateway operators (i.e gateway docs, relay specification, app stakes distribution mechanism, identifying the need to securely rotating the app stakes, contractual agreements, etc). We have been actively working with PNF to help remove these logistical barriers. As a result, these processes will be then distributed to the next 2-5 gateway operators that will be onboarding the network in the upcoming quarters.
On track
The grant’s purpose allowed us to build both inwards and outwards. Both of these characteristics go hand to hand, and the POKT ecosystem does benefit from both. It was always our intention that https://nodies.app would directly integrate with the protocol as a first step and to focus time and energy on building out BD/Sales for POKT. Then we would fan that out into a more open source-project to help further gateway operators onboard.
We are now powering anywhere from 50m to 80m POKT traffic a day at a 60% cost reduction in comparsion to previous gateway offerings. This only cements that multiple gateway operators will be a net add for the ecosystem. Furthermore, this is a huge step forward for the POKT ecosystem because:
POKT’s traffic is now more resilient than ever. Gateways now are operating on multiple different infrastructure stacks leading to a further resilient network as gateways are spread across multiple PoPs ranging from GCP to Bare Metal.
By directly integrating, this has led us to learn more about what it actually takes to become a gateway operator and ultimately strategize on what we would need to solve for in order to reduce the friction in gateways. Ultimately, this was one of the major contributing factors to our open source gateway stack vision and the actual OS Gateway stack.
On track
By directly integrating with the protocol and serving real world traffic, this has given us sufficient information on more QoS checks we would have to perform, and where we can optimize. This has already been reflected in our cost savings for the Network and why the gateway stack is so focused on performance and effiency. Furthermore, the prortocol team has already reached out to us to talk more about Gateways in general and where the OS Gateway stack fits in a post Shannon world.
On track
We already have our platform hooked into the network powering public RPCs. By the end of Q2, the foundation has set a goal of 2-5 gateway operators being able to also power POKT RPC. There have been numerous queries behind the scenes from both ecosystem members, node runners, and even centralized providers on leveraging our gateway stack. The rate that we are going, there will be plenty of actors who can potentially be tapping into the network for RPC on the demand side, ultimately cementing that the POKT Protocol is the only decentralized RPC network on both the supply and demand ends.
On track
Our recent efforts have made significant strides in achieving the outlined objectives within the past ~3 months. From removing logistical barriers for future gateway operators to supporting a second-mover gateway, learning about gateway operations, fostering innovations in technology, and diversifying revenue sources, Our integration and contributions have demonstrated tangible progress. The achievements so far continue to pave the future for a multi-gateway ecosystem that enhances the overall resilience, efficiency, and value of the Pocket Network
@poktblade This is a perfect way to sum up how the past 6 months have been from someone on the outside
From what I got from the initial announcement, I don’t believe this was supposed to be a Nodies only “direction and vision”. I saw it as the DAO bootstraps Nodies to be a steward of leading it’s development, but once it actually began, it has morphed into a Nodies only show.
From an outsider’s perspective, who’s been trying to get a handle for 6 months now on the technical aspects of the stack being built with DAO resources, there is the same level of exclusivity and siloing that reflect what many criticized when POKT was under a single company. Why do we want to repeat history? While I’m glad that the protocol team is getting all the technical information, this “picking and choosing” who gets to understand your actual gateway or tech stack is wrong IMO.
If I’m to take your comment at face value, your stack is now effecting protocol design, yet it’s architecture is still secretive? Though PNF has exclusively paid Nodies to built it, I don’t believe it’s design or architecture should be deemed exclusive for only some teams.
I’ve already expressed before that I believe you do solid work, and the code from my initial review of the OS Gateway was positive… but for me, it is overshadowed by the fact that any technical questions have been ignored (at least from the public) and we are now being told that we will only get transparency at the tail end… after it’s been built and the funds have been mostly spent.
On one hand, I should be excited that more gateways could be on-boarded next quarter… but on the other hand, the technical side is an exclusive club, and any attempt to make it inclusive (through questions) are ignored, while the exclusivity is being framed through a lens of justification. All this is worth addressing IMO, instead of pushing down the road to address in some other future intuitive that adopts a similar approach. Large 6 month initiatives (which represented nearly 1/4 of an ERA’s budget) should not be treated as some small initiative that are finished in a few weeks.
@poktblade, I think your stack probably has a straightforward architecture, and the gateway stack vision likely makes absolute sense… so I have no idea it can only be selectively shared. Whatever is being shared with select teams (like the protocol team) should be shared openly IMO.
Looking forward to when the gateway ecosystem doesn’t have gatekeeping
I’d suggest making your #4 priority, your #1 priority, as that is more in-line with the initial spirit of this initiative. Since it already exists (deriving from your comment), why not just communicate it now, instead of at the tail end of this initiative?
There seems to be this framing that any meaningful technical sharing is burdening of progress, and it should only happen at the end… but that is not a precedent that should be re-introduced into POKT, IMO.
@poktblade how many of these relays are from the public endpoints that are being paid for by PNF? Do we have a track on how much of your gateway burn is from the DAO resources vs other traffic?
You’ve shared some impressive stats about your gateway and it sounds like a good overall vision, but I struggle to get excited about something that has been shrouded in exclusivity. I’ll probably lean toward a critical disposition until this is no longer exclusively a “Nodies + select others” initiative, which I don’t believe follows PNF’s original vision shared in June.
3 months since signed contract.
I honestly wholeheartedly disagree with your message. The repository is open and there isn’t any gatekeeping. There is nothing new with maintainers within an open source project and early vision and developments require controlled development to make measurable progress from the initial get-go.
Our team will continue to own the direction and vision of the project to prevent any unnecessary thrashing.
Just to clarify, this does not mean that contributions are not welcomed. There are drivers to a project and then there are contributors and maintainers overtime. If there was serious contributors looking to come in early and be drivers, then we are open arms to letting them come and help assist. The idea of the multiple gateways and the gateway stack came from us, so it makes sense for us to be the drivers. We generally have an amazing relationship with the key developers in the ecosystem and when the time is right, I’m sure they will contribute.
Before Shannon became a thing, there was extensive research done behind the scenes, and I assure you it was not with the entire community. Yet… no qualms on your end about that (nor do we mind either). If you take a look at their development team, it is primarily composed of a single team as well for software development as well. Literally the same with WPOKT as well. So why are you so critical towards our approach and the negative framing? This is a reoccurring theme where you try to paint out a negative light starting off with keeping “LeanPocket” and “Geomesh” closed source. Then once open source, you don’t contribute to any of the repositories. Then you single us out with senseless framing.
But fine, let’s assume that your message is not bait. If you are so excited to contribute so early on, please send a message to me on Discord/Telegram/etc with an inquiry. We can talk about more in depth about how much developer resources you can contribute, what your team’s capabilities are, followed by an initial discovery call for some of the tasks we have now published. If it is within reasonable timeline that does not conflict with our deliverables for the next 2 months, and PNF will sign off on it, then I see no reason to not assign you the task. Sounds like a plan? Let’s find a time to discuss your bandwidth and commitment, and then we can move forward on next steps.
or… perhaps you’re just stirring the pot with senseless controversy and targeting us?
Guys, lets keep this civil…
I agree with @shane that it is desirable to have every decision-making process more open and plural, including developing. However I think that the project is not yet mature enough to enable this without stagnate.
During the last 6 months a lot of work has been put behind the scenes to make this whole thing grow, a lot big decisions were made outside pubic discussion. One of the greatest decision ever made was probably the migration to Celestia, and this was done completely isolated from the community (both figuratively and geographically).
Today the landscape has not changed, there is a ton of work behind the scenes (I can think of at least 6 MAJOR features being developed). There is no person that has the bandwidth to keep up with everything, even I struggle to keep up with the main ideas floating around and I have a full-time job within the Pocket ecosystem. How can we expect to make the community take part in this process? it is just unrealistic.
I think that @poktblade is right and I get why he seems a little mad. I’m very thankful for them to take ownership of such a big thing, and I don’t think anyone in the community can deny them the right to take ownership of the vision and direction of the project. I think that the PNF is paying them because they trust their leadership, so do I, and if we make a vote probably the whole DAO.
Now is the time to move fast, when Pocket matures and stabilizes, we can create a lot of bureaucracy around it, but tight now we must follow the french and laissez faire.
Firstly, thank-you for a direct response. I’ve asked some very basic technical questions multiple times over the past 6 months (July, September, and this week) and there has been no response from you and your team. Literally not a single response to those questions. None of them are unreasonable by any account and it has been far from any kind of barrage (like maybe 4 questions ever 2 months… and most were repeats since there wasn’t an answer ).
I’m glad it’s open-source, but that is one piece of “the stack”. There are a number of modules that are supposed to attach right? That what isn’t clear… and why I asked:
That question honestly shouldn’t take more than a minute to answer and would provide a lot of insight. Just understanding how your stack works allows us to properly understand the technical goals (not the high level, non-technical vision talk that has been the only thing shared).
Your updates definitely lean towards you already having a solid idea of how this stack fits together, so I feel it’s perfectly natural to ask a few basic questions. You need to understand, that while some folks get excited about press release like updates, POKT is also a community of highly technical folks, and this initiative always encouraged asking questions.
Questions aren’t being answered however, and instead there is an announcement about it influencing Shannon… so it is perfectly inline to ask questions, especially when it looks like there is some kind of gatekeeping.
As I said, this initiative sounded much more open with information when it was announced, so it should be expected to have there a few questions.
It was actually very open… especially right when they started writing actual code. The prior protocol team hosted research community calls, and even posted their internal research calls. @RichCL and I would geek out to those on the drive to Tampa (good times my guy ) This team has been very open as well, especially with the architecture (which is what I’ve always been passionate about).
It’s been very easy to be a part of Shannon in areas of interested, by asking questions both publicly and privately. I wrote the original ADR in public to argue that gateways should be a central part on the protocol level, and that came after talking about it months prior. It was accepted by the team and no doubted had a place in starting this intuitive.
WPOKT team was great as well. We built the wallet alongside them and getting access to information and resources while they were building was fantastic. Props to them as well.
So like you, I have no issue with how their teams has been, and like you have been passionate about gateways (and literally from the start).
We don’t do client work directly… that has never been our focus. The reason I pushed back on LeanPocket when it was closed source was because the DAO was told that it would be made open-source, only after pay $2M… which also didn’t include the contributions from the Feather Client which addressed the Tendermint/validation issue. There is a lot there to have an opinion on, especially when it had to do with more than 10% of the DAO resources Suggesting my participation in the conversation was simply to stir drama is misguided.
Regarding your version of Geomesh… I already stated my reasons very clearly above. That too was about DAO funds, not about the tech itself. I’ve never had an issue with folks building their own stuff, but it is totally fair to be involved in DAO discussions when it comes to funding and expectations.
Let us not conflate my technical questions today with those other things in the past that were focused around DAO resources. I’ve been critical of POKTScan being closed source and receiving DAO resources… though they are very consistent with answering questions. If anything I’m consistent to a fault
lol… nope. We have built numerous products and tools that fit into the gateway ecosystem (QoS, LB automation, deployment automation, etc) and have been consistent with being in 99% of community calls. We are currently doing more wallet work, but after that there is a very good possibility we would to get our hands dirty in gateways. This type of deployment stack is literally in our MO (CC is literally a distributed gateway for POKT nodes).
PNF asked for folks to let them know how they can be a part of the OS Gateway stack… but that is impossible if the basic understanding of the architecture is unknown and any technical questions are ignored.
It would be shortsighted to see gateways as a whole as a Nodies vision, or to judge who you think will be able to participate. Being interested in gateways isn’t like a bluff or something
Overall, any technical questions or criticism from my side should not be taken personal. You were critical of the DAO paying for altruist relays (which totaled around 4% of the value of this initiative), but it’s all part of the DAO process.
If that is the way to have discourse on the basic architecture, then we can setup a time to talk. Seemed less efficient to me, but thanks for giving an option.
Call incoming…
Is all of the code necessary to frictionlessly launch a POKT gateway open-sourced and publicly available now, @poktblade ?
Which parts of the code are missing, what else should be open-sourced, @shane ?
Here is the link to the github repo. What exactly is missing?
There are only 2 options possible. Either @poktblade has not provided all of the code necessary to become a gateway operator and launch it easily, or @shane is stirring the pot way above acceptable levels. Time to put the facts on the table.
Hey @SteveO,
The core code has been open-sourced, as I mentioned and linked to above. What wasn’t obvious was the architecture of how modules are supposed to connect to it, or what else is expected in a gateway stack. Past announcements talked about other products, like Nodies Cop, and Nodies Registry, which were a mix of open-source and closed-source, so I asked basic questions to understand the full stack. I don’t see anything wrong with that.
So those are the facts. You are welcome to revisit my questions and see if any of them are out of line.
I have published more concrete information on the GW Stack Initial Release Candidate - Nodies DLB, which is a summarization of our update and provides more color to the identity of the gateway stack (since many devs don’t read the forums). Long term, this will sit in our GitHub repository. Furthermore, now that the GW stack is open, the issues and what we’re working on are also open.
We spoke to Shane and unfortunately, they are tied up for this month to help in contributing with the open issues. However, if there are self-motivated developers who are interested in contributing, then we are more than happy to consider you as well. Please keep in mind, that we have to balance this with our deliverable timelines, so we are looking for developers who already have historical context with Pocket and are willing to do self-research and self-drive. There will be an amplitude of more opportunities coming down the road for more contributors and new developers.
Thanks!
This is excellent. Seems very clear
This post serves as a final post to this thread. Moderators should lock and start a new thread discussion to avoid spam.
Nodies involvement in the gateway verse has come to an end. The engagement was mutually concluded back in April 2024 with @Dermot / prev Foundation after all of the agreed deliverables were met. Since then, Nodies has been offering pro-bono software development services on onboarding gateways and contributing to the gateway stack.
It’s been a pleasure to work with the ecosystem to help develop a multi-gateway implementation and provide a fully open source solution for gateway operators to tap into 50+ EVM, and Solana chains. Anyone who wants to be a gateway operator can do so within an hour of using our stack.
POKT single point of traffic has been distributed across multiple gateway operators (100% → 52%) The following are running the gateway server:
Further more, the gateway server exposes QoS metrics that any gateway operator can expose and any blockchain explorer can scrape. This has enabled blockchain explorers to expose QoS metrics back to the node operators to help improve the service.
It was a perceived conception that gateways should cost a significant amount of funds to run.
Nodies initially optimized the supply side with LeanPOKT - reducing the cost of node operations by 99% and now the demand supply with Gateway server. The cost of pure gateway costs was reduced from $600k/month to $1k/month with the gateway server.
Grove is now creating another open source solution called Path. Currently, it is not production ready and lacks QoS abilities to run in production. Not a single gateway can use it currently.
To be frank, we invested a lot of time into documenting our processes and encouraging the ecosystem to contribute too. Multiple entities already have contributed to the repository, including Chainstack and Poktscan.
With the current state of Pocket, my belief is that more time being spent on alternative gateway implementations is only going to introduce segmentation rather than unification right now, which the network desperately needs. I would much prefer to see Grove contribute to the gateway server and focus on protocol, but atlas it is their decision.
The gateway server isn’t perfect, as with any software. Nodies has sent an informal proposal to the Foundation for continued development of the gateway server. Until then the responsibilities of gateway development has since April and still now does lies with the existing Foundation.
Thank you @Dermot, @JackALaing and the prev Foundation for advocating and supporting the development of the gateway server Ultimately, the initiative was well needed due to the lack of open source solutions.
Best of luck everyone and glad we got the network this far,
Erick (Blade)
This post has been closed per Blade’s asking. Thanks for you guys’ contribution to our ecosystem!